The OneSixOne Podcast EP07 - I made a mistake

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04

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2021

Matt, Steph, Andy & Jared share stories around the topic of failure and the lessons they’ve learned from it.

Mentions: The lean startup - Eric Reis, College admissions scandal - Netflix, Never too small - YouTube channel, The girl with the louding voice - Abi Dare, 99% Invisible - podcast

The OneSixOne Podcast

Co-founders of OneSixOne, Matt, Steph, Andy and Jared share their thoughts and conversations amidst the everyday madness of running a diverse creative agency. Recorded at The Qube, London. Produced by Tim Steemson. Theme music- ‘Lights Camera Action’ by meganeko. To keep up-to-date with the OneSixOne podcast, signup and subscribe via Spotify or Apple Music.

The Podcast Transcript

Matt Miller (00:00:01):
Hi friends, welcome to the OneSixOne podcast where we chat about stuff we've been chatting aboutin the studio because we want to chat about it more. My name is Matt Miller in the room today we have Andrew Khatouli, we have Steph Alcaino and we haveJared Saar. Nice. I didn't introduce Mitch as well. It's good to have you back mate. Welcome.

[Music]

Matt Miller (00:01:10):
So how's everyone doing? Cause yesterday was the first anniversary of lockdown. So it's quite a huge moment for us in this country. Lots of different ways that people were responding. Obviously some people are going through some really serious stuff this year. Other people, are just trying to stay focused and crack on, but you know, after we've gone through this for a year, how's everyone feeling today.

Andy Khatouli (00:01:30):
I'm just grateful. We're healthy. And we're still here. I know loads of people have had tougher times, but I'm really thankful that you know, me and my family okay. Business is still here.

Stephanie Alcaino (00:01:41):
Definitely.

Andy Khatouli (00:01:41):
Even the little things.

Stephanie Alcaino (00:01:42):
I think it is all about the little things isn't it? It's not taking those for granted since there's so much of our lifestyle that we used to take for granted, until you go in lockdown that you realize that you don't have anymore. I think it's important to realize, or just have gratitude for the small little things that keep you going and feeds into that hope that it is going to get better again.

Matt Miller (00:02:03):
Sure. I think like this world has changed so much in the past year. Like globally things have change, like politically human rights, justice, and then on a personal level, like how we're doing our life has changed. Like I went into the supermarket this week and I haven't been to the supermarket for like five months or something like walking around, which again is a luxury because we can just do it online. But we adopted this behavior as this precaution for social distance in. And so like, even like our norms are different, but I think you're right. Your point on focusing on smaller things. Like, I feel like we're so drawn to getting invested in global things and ignoring the actual small things that bring us life, make a difference, bring a sense of reality and grounding. And you know, even for me, I've lost family members this year because of COVID. So I dunno, I don't think I've probably in the space of the last 24 hours fully appreciated everything that's happened this year. But I think one thing I haven't been thinking about is very much what you're saying is like the stuff that's around me, that's tangible, like not that I'm some kind of control freak, but it helps me kind of bring a sense of reality and you know, it doesn't make me get incredibly anxious about things that are going on that can't control.

Jared Saar (00:03:20):
Am I the only one that thinks like COVID, you know, when you kind of grow up and you're in your country and you see another country, but it's kind of like a bad way to put it is that you almost feel like sometimes countries are like different worlds. Like you're like America's over there and I'm over here and you know, China's over there and all these kinds of things, but then a global pandemic reminds you, oh, it's like one world, we're all going through this. It reminded me like, oh, this is a world thing, like a world pandemic. And we're all going through it regardless of race or country or anything like that. Like, no one's separated here. Like it's a global issue. I don't know what it made me feel like it's hard to put into words, but it made me think like, oh yeah, this is like the first time I've been so aware of how I guess connected. We all are. I don't know. Am I the only one that thinks that?

Andy Khatouli (00:04:09):
I've been thinking that as well. It's like, it's crazy to think that, you know, individually, we all have our own challenges in life, but like when was the last time, I guess the last pandemic, whatever that was in history. But when was the last time that every single person in the world experienced the same thing at the same time? Like, that's a mad thought in my mind. Yeah. Like everyone is going through the same process of like considering things in their lives and like trying to keep safe and trying to not get old. That boggles my mind because like, other than this, like before this even happened, like everyone had their own lives. But like all of a sudden, like you said, Jared, like, we're all kind of interconnected now over this one issue. And it's frustrating because it's not necessarily a positive thing, is it?

Matt Miller (00:04:52):
It's an interesting point talking about connection because we've all been presented with various challenges this year that have brought a sense of connection to everyone. Like we can relate to what everyone's going through to a certain degree. Like you're right. Probably for the first time in recent history there isn't like, I dunno, a global sporting event, like the world cup, everyone's talking about it or something. You know what I mean?

Andy Khatouli (00:05:12):
6.5 billion tuned in...

Andy Khatouli (00:05:15):
Yeah, exactly.

Jared Saar (00:05:16):
Even on that, like it's like, it's not like, you know how in the past I think the Western world is so quick to not acknowledge a problem going on somewhere that it doesn't affect them and they don't care about. I think this is a real kind of wake up call. Like it's like, we're all going through it. And obviously that's not a good thing that we're not acknowledging someone else's struggles, but you know, we are connected now by the fact that we're all having to think this through. And actually you're seeing other countries and other leaders, some of them doing a really good job and some of them maybe not so much. And even as a country, you're now like you're almost comparing yourself to the countries that are doing really well. And you're like, wait, why are they doing so well? And what haven't we done?

Matt Miller (00:05:50):
Like everyone wants to be in New Zealand right now. New Zealand you won, you won Covid. But I think, yeah, you're right. You're right. And I think, you know, we've been talking a little bit about challenges and specifically like failure. I think like we love this space where we can have these conversations and we like open it up to everyone. Hopefully it's been helpful. Like we've never wanted to kind of come across as we're the authoritative voice on something like, this is literally how we talk in the office or when someone's thinking about something we all stop and pause and chat about it. Or we're in WhatsApp talking about stuff and sending links to things we're reading. Like this is all what we do. But I thought, you know, we were talking about challenges. We're talking about specifically failure. And I think it's an interesting one because we've not really shared stuff that where we've just messed up. And I think when we do talk about things, we've messed up on it. There's a lot to be learned, but it's also just generally quite funny. So maybe we should talk about failure and share some of the stories. I mean, can you tell me like, starting off, like I felt this morning just to get in here. It's the first time in weeks that we've been even anywhere, relatively close to each other. Like, fortunately we can do in this place because they've got everything socially distanced and in place. So it's great. But man, like, I don't know what's going on in London at the moment, but it's busier than when COVID, wasn't here on the roads. So I don't know how people are or what people are doing or where they're going, but it was craziness this morning.

[Music]

Stephanie Alcaino (00:07:21):
I would love to give a bit of context why we were even discussing this in the first place. I find it really interesting with obviously a lot of businesses and with COVID and the pandemic as well as all the social unrest, we've seen a lot of from a business side, companies fail publicly because they either got called out for lack of integrity and things like that. So it was actually quite interesting this topic coming up and us being able to also go, okay, yeah, we've totally failed in our lives as well. I'm actually really excited for this podcast because when you look back, when you're not in it anymore, failure is actually like, it is a good thing, a good teacher. You can laugh about it in hindsight, but you can also value it because it taught you something along the way as well.

Jared Saar (00:08:06):
Yeah. Can we clarify as well failure because I feel like for me, we were just, we were discussing, you know, at least like before this podcasts, like, okay, maybe we should come in with some like actual stories of times we remembered, like this happened. The worst part would I think for us would be like, when you tell failure stories that no one can relate to and that I really bad, like I tried to make a cake and I put too much sugar and it's like, come on like that is not, that he's really not a good example.

Andy Khatouli (00:08:33):
I'm just going to delete my notes.... [Laughter]

Matt Miller (00:08:36):
The cake story is gone...

Jared Saar (00:08:36):
I think it's failure. Like I just, maybe it's like worth clarifying too, because it's not like we're taking an exam and someone said you failed, but I guess are we saying that failure for us is like, when we know personally like, ah, okay, I stuffed up or that was a mistake or something like that. Like, is that what we're calling failure when we're just like, okay, I've learned lesson because I've made a mistake there. Like or something like that.

Matt Miller (00:08:58):
Yeah. Cause I think there's a clear definition of failure, right? Yeah. I feel like Steph's about to hit me with it...

Stephanie Alcaino (00:09:05):
Always guys, always. Failure is a lack of success, but the other definition aside from lack of success is the neglect or emission of expected or required action.

Jared Saar (00:09:18):
That's mad and you came up with that on top of your head. [Laughter].

Stephanie Alcaino (00:09:20):
It's crazy, isn't it?

Matt Miller (00:09:22):
And that's the lane that I think is interesting is when you promise something and you fail to deliver or by your own expectation, you had a standard to meet and you didn't deliver. So I think, you know, and I'm sure we can share some OneSixOne stories probably as well. I think the personal story is interesting because I think, you know, we're all individuals in this room and it's good to hear the personal lessons that you've learned from stories that may seem small in the grand scheme of failure. Like it didn't contribute to like a bankruptcy or something, but I think it's a good thing to hear. I think we're talking about the lessons we've learned personally.

Jared Saar (00:09:54):
Maybe it's that we're talking about now in hindsight, our relationship with failure, how we've seen the value in it in hindsight, but in the moment it sucks. It's the worst. Yeah. I mean, we've all got stories who wants to jump in first?

Matt Miller (00:10:07):
Should I just go?. I mean, I'll share this story because it may seem insignificant this time, but looking back at the time, it like really rocked me. And I think it was more to do with just my character and my probably won't like my ego and my thinking that I can just do anything without actually having the skills to do it. Cause I think there's some principles like, you know, the kind of fake it till you make it thing kind of actually does work for some people. And there's definitely been periods of my life where I've done. 'Yeah. I can do that.' And you you'd kind of do it and you get away with it. And you're like, oh wow. Yeah, took that risk and it paid off. This definitely wasn't one of them. So I think I was around 20 years old and it was a time in my life where I was living in the Northeast. I think I have to be careful here. Not because it involves other people not to share names and stuff. So I have to kind of paint the picture without giving away too much because these people might be listening to this podcast. So I was living in the Northeast of England. And I was so broke. I had like no money cause I was working for like this charity thing and I was getting paid like £70 a week or something like crazy. And I was living in a ex air raid shelter, which I don't know if you know what that is, but it's basically a building that was designed to look invisible from the sky during world war two when they dropped bombs. So on Google maps, it looks like a car park.

Jared Saar (00:11:43):
Wow.

Matt Miller (00:11:43):
From the top. But actually it's like a building with like a kind of pitched roof. Anyway, I was living in the back of that, where they put up just MDF boards to block it out. So I had a room with no windows and a little radiator and I was living in that and I was happy, like just getting cracking on with stuff. I had no money and I had like a digital camera, which was rubbish. And at the time, like I was more doing like a little bit of photography, for like bands and stuff, and a little bit of kind of design, like a few logos here and there. But when you're in that small network, like people, if they see with the camera, they just assume you can do photography. Yeah. So a friend of a friend said, Hey, Matt has a camera and you guys are getting married and you need a wedding photographer.

Jared Saar (00:12:29):
Oh, Okay.

Andy Khatouli (00:12:29):
Oh no!

Matt Miller (00:12:32):
It's like the biggest the biggest pressure on a photographer for me wedding. Yeah. And I, in my head was like, hi, first off, I just don't enjoy weddings. Anyway. Secondly, I am not all quantified to be a wedding photographer at this stage in my life. So this is like the first time other than turning up to a wedding with my camera and just taking a few candid snaps that I was going to be the wedding photographer right. And the location was in this random, really small place in Scotland miles away. So I had to get the train up and all this kind of stuff. And so the couple he was from the states and she was from Scotland. And so they'd not seen each other for a very long time. It was the first time they're going to be right. So the emotions were high, like big stakes wedding night anyway. So they're like, yeah, we'll pay you. I think it was like £500. And at the time I was like, this is, this money is going to change my life. I can maybe upgrade my camera and I can take it a bit more seriously and all this kind of stuff and bear in mind at this time I couldn't retouch images. I knew the principles in terms of photography, but I was just not anywhere. I was not good at photography at this stage. So I go up there and first off everything is indoors because they got married also in the winter. So it's just dark. I had no flash...

Stephanie Alcaino (00:13:56):
Oh no...

Matt Miller (00:13:56):
I just had my camera. Thats all I had... and two memory cards and two batteries. Thats all I had the whole time. So I go up and you know, it was, it was difficult, but I shot like the ceremony and I got, you know, I thought I was getting the shots and stuff and it's all indoors and dark soI'm whacking up the ISO.

Jared Saar (00:14:21):
I just looking at Steph right now..

Stephanie Alcaino (00:14:26):
Im just so anxious!

Jared Saar (00:14:26):
I'm just looking at Steph to understand what my reaction should be. So dark and ISO. And I'm looking at Steph. [Laughter].

Matt Miller (00:14:32):
So basically I whack it up to like 12, like 1000 anyway. So like basically like just totally thinking these images will come up fine It's digital camera and not thinking these are going to be the greatest images like anyway. So I photograph them. And then the reception is in this kind of hotel, which is, I say hotel, it's like a pub with a room, with a gas fireplace, tungsten lighting, red curtains, cream walls. And then I'm like, I have never told anyone,directed anyone. Like I was talking like, oh yeah, just stand by this fireplace. Like, so there's a gas fireplace in the middle that there stood on each side of. Like the gas fireplaces, a feature. So whenever I shoot all these photos, everyone's like, oh, thank you so much, Matt, for coming. Okay. Yeah. Six, I go home. And then I realized as well, like I don't even have a card reader to get these images off the card. So I I'm like, oh my gosh, and I shot everything as JPEGs.

[Laughter]

Matt Miller (00:15:34):
So I come back right. And I put it all into, I had this tiny little laptop with like a bad version of Photoshop. So I load all the images in and I'm looking and I'm like, oh, maybe they're just like rendering, as their loading in. I'm like, wow, these images of bad. I'm looking at them being like these look a lot worse on a screen than they did on my camera. The images were terrible. I must've shot a crazy amount of images, like 1500 images or 2000 images. There's maybe 10 images that were decent and like, okay. And cause I just didn't re retouch anything properly. I just like slapped a filter on, blurred the skin like crazy. So I think there was like 10 images where, you know, I'd be like, they were okay. Anyway, I like package up these images and send them like 40 or 50 images or whatever, which I thought was a lot of photos. So I send them and you know, also the process was a little bit difficult. I fought like I really need this money. So I'll just do whatever for you. And to be honest, like relationally, it wasn't the best anyway. Yeah. And I just don't like weddings, so I was not enthusiastic. Okay. So I send the images off and then I just get like, you know, two days later, like a phone call and it's the husband and he's like is this all of the images? That's how he started the kind of the conversation, just like, Hey, is this all the images? And I'm like, yeah, it's the images like these are the worst images I've ever seen.

[Nervous laughter].

Jared Saar (00:17:04):
Oh my gosh.

Matt Miller (00:17:05):
He was like, my wife was crying when she saw them and I was like...

Jared Saar (00:17:08):
Oh my goodness.

Matt Miller (00:17:10):
I was like, oh okay. I remember when I got the phone call. Cause there was like, there was people around me and I just answered. And I just felt like the world, I started cold sweating. And the worst thing about it is cause they sent me the money before. Right. They sent me the money and I was like, I had no money. So I spent all the money.

Stephanie Alcaino (00:17:37):
Oh no.

Matt Miller (00:17:37):
This is how my life was like at this stage. There was no business sense. Anyway,he was like, can you re edit them? And I was like, yeah, like, I'll try. I can do that. And then he was like, we want, we want our money back. I'm like, I'm going to be honest with you. I spent all the money. I told the client I spent all their money! And he was like well, we want some of it back then. And I was like, I can probably get you some of it back in a couple of weeks. Mate, It was terrible. The photos as well, they were bad. I think I gaussian blurred their faces to heck.

Andy Khatouli (00:18:21):
Oh my goodness.

Matt Miller (00:18:24):
The other thing that was difficult about it as well as like he was a black guy, like, and she was like pale white. So you can understand photographing those two people together in a dark room. There were times she was green or yellow and he was like, purple-y brown colored light. It was bad. It fully rocks me because I never really took anything that seriously, I wasn't thinking I'm going to be a photographer career. I was purely thinking about money. And also I was asking am I good enough at the stuff that I'm doing? You know, I was working for this charity and I wasn't thinking I'm going to be like some creative guy that's to go be this in his life.Actually like the rocking to a certain degree was really good because I kind of stopped everything I was doing after that for a little bit and was like, I didn't enjoy anything about that process. I have this camera. I use it because it's helpful for stuff randomly that I do. But do I actually want to take this seriously? Like I thought I knew photography. Like I literally learned in a dark room like first, and then I'm like trying to do this thing, this digital camera. I'm like, what's gone wrong with all this stuff. Like yeah. I think in terms of principle, like every step of the way, there was a wrong decision, I actually, I'm glad that I was kind of secure enough, even though it was painful and relationally, I didn't know those people super well, but there was no chance of having any kind of positive relationship with those people after that.

Jared Saar (00:19:56):
Yeah, yeah.

Matt Miller (00:19:58):
Even the person that recommended me, looked at the images and they like, I mean, you didn't do yourself any favors, even though it was a difficult situation. And I think it proved to me appreciating what it actually takes to do something which people take for granted like, oh, you can take some pictures. Cause you have the tools, oh, you can design this cause you have the software. It doesn't work like that. No, that was the first teachable lesson for me. Like I can't fake that stuff. There's a reason why people, but the, for years these like these art forms. So after that I was like, okay, do you know what? Like I actually, I do think I have something in photography. So let me dig into this. And so then I actually started to learn, take it a bit more seriously. I didn't take any kind of like commissions or proper work. And the irony of it is that like, literally it was only, it was about a year and a half later, but I landed a job as a photo editor.

Jared Saar (00:20:51):
Oh, interesting.

Matt Miller (00:20:52):
My next job. So that shows that that whole process where I didn't do very much led to me then actually being able to be responsible for a company's images online.

Jared Saar (00:21:04):
Do you know what's interesting about that stories. You're the kind of person where I feel like you wouldn't do anything unless you deeply understand it. So maybe that for me answers the question of why you like that. Cause like every time you buy a new product, you're reading the manual before you even touch it. To think that you didn't do that one stage. I'm like, oh, maybe that was why. Cause you now never want to go in blind.

Matt Miller (00:21:29):
But it is those things like, and I think about this, like even when we've seen each other work like me and Steph, right? Like, cause we do a lot of photography work you can take for granted when someone literally just picks up a camera - like that process from picking up the camera to pushing the shutter. There's literally like 50 things on a checklist mentally that you behaviourally now do you've done it so many times that you'd go through everything. Yeah. And then it contributes to be in a good image. And I don't think people really understand that. Like even the things I was just saying, like the ISO was this the, but like the, so like even just shooting in JPEG, which now it doesn't even seem like a possibility that I would do that. Like that's so basic. But I think that's why like I truly do try and appreciate and don't take for granted. People's like creative work that they do because there's so many micro steps within that process.

Jared Saar (00:22:18):
Yeah. that was a good story. I hadn't heard that one before.

Stephanie Alcaino (00:22:22):
Oh my gosh. It's the only reason why I felt so anxious is because I've been there. Like I've had probably my first wedding and then a, like a 50th birthday party where I didn't even use my flash squats. And you're like, these images are good in the tiny little screen. You look back on them and you're like, 'oh no'. [Laughter] I totally related to where everyone throughout the day, is like, oh thank you so much. I'm sure these images will be crying. And you're like, why are you thanking me? And you haven't seen them yet. And then you think, yeah, they're going to be okay, but then they're terrible. Yeah. Yeah. But took me on a whole roller coaster. But I think like, this is why sometimes destroys me particularly when I was just a photographer where you're like, someone asks you all, what do you do? And you're like, oh, I'm a photographer. And then they go, oh, do photography too is, oh, it's just a hobby, but I love photography. And you're like, and I've spent the last decade trying to hone in my craft. And you're basically saying that my job is your hobby. Yeah. Crazy.

[Music]

Andy Khatouli (00:23:31):
Every time someone messages me and they're like, I want to learn graphic design. [Laughter].

Jared Saar (00:23:38):
Yeah. Give me, give me how much does it cost to do the course? Give me that much money and i'll teach you.

Andy Khatouli (00:23:42):
This is the thing as well, realized this the other week, because I was talking to a friend about like the university experience. And I was saying for me, I kind of knew what I wanted to do with my life. Like I was like, I'm going to be a creative. I'm probably going to be doing something relating to illustration or design. Like I knew that. And then at sixth form, it was like, I know exactly what I'm doing. I'm going to be a graphic designer. So I ran with that. But I think what a lot of people take for granted is like the journey, like leading up to that point as well. And like as a child, I was always making, taking things apart and breaking them, putting them back together, trying to understand how things work. So when someone comes to me and they're like, how long have you been a graphic designer for? I'm like, well, to be honest, when I was a kid, it's been that long. It's like inherent to who I am. It's not, I didn't just go to uni for three years and then learn graphic design. And now I'm a designer. Like it's just part of my nature. That's what I do. So I think a lot of people don't see that part of the journey, you know, the personal journey that you've taken as a creative, like you've done it through your childhood years. You've tested, you've had fun. And then you go, okay. Yeah, this is kind of what I want to do now. Whereas like whenever I see these adverts on YouTube where it's like, why do you want to hire a graphic designer when you can design a logo on our website for like £10? Cause it's like, well, yeah, your business is worth 10 pounds now. So invest in it. There's no quick solutions to this.

Matt Miller (00:25:10):
Yeah, definitely.

Stephanie Alcaino (00:25:11):
Actually, I have a story that basically I was the quick solution type of person.

Andy Khatouli (00:25:15):
Sorry. [Laughter].

Stephanie Alcaino (00:25:19):
No, no, no. I had to actually learn the hard way. So a few years back before we started this and in some ways like the chapter before this chapter of our lives. I was working for a company as sort of like in-house photographer and kind of content creator, if anything. And I remember towards the end of it, I was like super burnt out. And you know, I had lost all my freelance clients because they were just demanding so much of me. And then there was these skewed expectations that I was just ready for whatever they wanted to the point that I showed up to do a job for, for obviously to grab some more content photography wise. And then I had given up my Friday evening to be there.Then the person's like, oh, you know, just wait a little while and then we can have our meeting. And I was like, okay, that's fine because we're meant to meet earlier that week. And he forgot. So we didn't even, like I had a meeting scheduled in that the person didn't show up for. And then he pushed it back whilst I got there. And then he's like, oh, can you wait an hour? And then we'll do the photos. So I waited around doing kind of a little bit of nothing really. And then I started to come back to go take the photographs and then I get a text saying, oh actually, we decided we're not taking photos today. But thanks for coming, sorry. I wasted your time. It was something like that. And I was just that point. I was just like, I'm not even being valued anymore. Like my time is not important to these other people. And I was just like, my work is better than this. And like, I don't know even why I'm giving all my time to this when I've actually put what I want to pursue on hold. So I made the decision to quit that job and just go freelance again. Technically I was freelance, but it really felt like more like a full-time role. So I left my job and then Jared left his job for other reasons. And then we're like, oh yeah, you know, I'll be the photographer. Jared can be my agent. And I realized when we walked into it, we had no strategy whatsoever.

Jared Saar (00:27:25):
We had good vibes though. [Laughter]

Stephanie Alcaino (00:27:32):
Exactly. Then like probably a few months in we're like, we're not making enough finance to live in London and it's becoming a massive struggle. And then I just remember my whole mentality was just like, but I deserve this. Like I, you know, my work is good. I deserve to be getting work, but I didn't know how to pitch to clients. I didn't know how to run, I guess the business side to being a freelance photographer nor did I have enough experience under my belt to actually warrant me being full-time freelance. And I remember my parents going, Hey, why don't you just get a part-time job? You know? It's okay to just have other means to supplement what you're doing. And I was like, no, I'm too good for that in my head. And I just like now in hindsight, I remember it was that whole like difference between, you know, being entitled and being eligible. Like it is such an entitled mindset of going well, no, I know my worth and I'm worth more than having a coffee shop job or whatever, but I just started to dig a deeper whole. And then I got into having that entitled mindset. Just got me into this place of going well, I'm going to prove them wrong. So first you're already in this wrong warped mindset of going well, you actually don't even realize that you're not qualified to do this, nor have you done enough research to realize that you haven't strategically planned for this, that now I'm in this mode of going no, I'm going to prove them wrong. So I stopped improving and I started proving. And what the difference between the two is that when you're in this state of I'm going to prove them wrong, I'm going to prove them better. Is that you can't see your blind spots because you're so focused on going, no I'm going to do this.

Andy Khatouli (00:29:16):
You get tunnel vision don't you.

Stephanie Alcaino (00:29:16):
100%. Whilst when you're improving, all you do is focus on your blind spots and you try to improve and get better at those. But I definitely can tell, you know, all we started doing is getting into more and more trouble of not being able to sustain ourselves in London. And, you know, I was actually speaking to my mum about this yesterday, where it's just like, I'm so aware of whole bunch of the mistakes that I made. And like, you know, my parents, when they came to Australia, I was born later down the track with my sister. So I didn't see the grit that they had to go through to get to where they were when I was a lot more aware and a lot more older. So I think in my mind, I didn't realize that there is a certain element of you having to go through that grit to get where you want to be. And the problem about being, having this entitled mindset is that you think you can shortcut your way to anywhere because you think you deserve it. But you actually haven't spent the time to hone in your craft. And even if I was quite competent as a photographer, I had no clue about, you know, how to build a good budget or how to sustain myself by chasing clients or doing sales and things like that. And we just started to fail greatly. And I think that was the time when we started actually realizing that our business model, so to speak or lack thereof was not proving sustainable. And I think that's when we started speaking about doing this business and then even then walking in doing this business, we realize how much we were lacking. But this time we were like, okay, we don't know anything. So let's actually go learn the things. So that's probably my failure story where we failed to the point that we had no money to live on.

Jared Saar (00:31:04):
Yeah. It's a good point because I think to that point, you watch all the movies and in an hour and a half, they go from nothing to like the greatest artist.

Stephanie Alcaino (00:31:11):
It's the montage scene isn't it?

Jared Saar (00:31:12):
Yeah. But it's almost like it teaches you a little bit. Like you will make it, you just have to keep going. But I think we discovered it's like, no, there's no guarantee. Like we might not make it and it might not work and we might fail. And I think it was when we went to like, okay, ground zero, we went to great photography conference called association of photographers. They're an amazing kind of resource for photographers. If you want to work out contracts, licensing, all those kinds of things. They're actually amazing for that. So highly recommend it, but we went there and I think that day was when we realized, okay, there's a lot of work we need to do. And understanding then budgets and figures and what it takes started to make us realize there's a gap here of actually being a photographer in London. Like it is a grind and you have to go if like, you probably agree, you have to be at it like every week. You can't kind of let up to a point because there's this, unless you're like a pro like at the top of your field, like, unless you're at that kind of older years and you're, you're getting these shoots that are like, you know, a hundred thousand, 200,000 kind of jobs, it's small jobs that you're constantly grinding away at to get somewhere, to get to that sustainable point. And we realized very quickly, like, you know, there's that path we can go down or a more appealing path as well would be actually let's set up something where we have a bigger budget to play with and we can make better choices. Like let's do photography, lets do design and things like that. So, but yeah, that was a big learning curve for me. It was such a necessary thing for me to go. But looking back on it, I'm like Jared you child. [Laughter] You had no idea what it was, but I had to go through it. So that was interesting.

Stephanie Alcaino (00:32:52):
Yeah.

Andy Khatouli (00:32:53):
Yeah. I think I can relate. Cause I feel like I live in a bit of a tension as well with, you know, being a, sort of a visionary being super enthusiastic. You know, like I say this with my wife, like I'm the optimist and she's the pessimist, but you know, naturally being kind of wired in that way, you're always pushing forward. And I think one of the things I've kind of learned over the years is that that natural enthusiasm that I hold for projects or creativity can sometimes hold me back from as kind of what Steph said, like planning ahead well. So rather than just working for the sake of it to get stuff in, rather trying to think through like, can I work smartly? I've got countless stories of like things that I've started and then got halfway through and then gone, oh dear, why did I not consider this at the start of the project? Now I've got to restart the project and do it again and again, and again and again. So yeah, I think I've, I kind of live in that weird spot where it's like, I'm naturally going to run ahead. And that's a good thing because you need those people who are going to spearhead and, you know, take you to the next leap. But the downfall to that sometimes is that I've not considered some of the challenges further down the road, or even like putting the foundations in the first place to make sure that I can actually finish the job. So I've had so many projects where I've like had to work over time because I didn't consider like all these little different things that kind of crop up as you go along, but that's been good because, you know, once you've completed one project then the next project, you can start to implement some of the lessons that you've learned from the failures. So you incrementally get better and better and better. And so in some ways you kind of welcome those challenges. You're like, okay, what's the new challenge in this project? What will crop up? Because I know if I can face that then in the next project I'll have a greater knowledge. So I was reading a book this morning and they use this phrase that I thought was really interesting.
They called it after-wisdom. Oh. So it's this idea that you learn after you've made a mistake. Yeah. So obviously you don't want to encourage people to make mistakes for the sake of it because that will be disastrous. But it's having the mindset of, can I take the failure in this space or maybe not the failure, like I've missed the mark slightly, or this has been a slight challenge. Can I take that and use it as after-wisdom? So then applying it ahead. So then I know that moving forward I'll make, I guess, better choices, but funny story, I have not designed related more personal related that kind of sums this up is when I was planning my honeymoon for me and my wife, I made the mistake of thinking, right. Let's just do what you're supposed to do. So like when you think of a honeymoon, what do you think of you think of like a nice luxurious place where you go and you can just be away from everyone else and dah, dah, dah. And I'm like, okay, cool. We're like, wait, what are the places we want to go? And now it's like, let's go to Italy. That's like one of those places you go to the honeymoon. So like, okay, cool. So we book in holiday to the Amalfi coast, which is a beautiful place. Like incredible, like one of, obviously one of my favorite memories of life. And I don't plan ahead for anything. I'm just like, let's put, the tickets will arrive and we'll just do stuff. So we find this like random hotel that's like on the CMJ, like the photos look nice on the website. The area looks really beautiful. You book it in, we arrive, we're going up to our room. We've booked like this like really lovely sort of en suite place. And we've got like a, I dunno, king or queen size bed. But anyway, we walk in, we put our bags down and then I'm like, oh, Rhema, there's something wrong with the bed. And so she turns around. And what we've realized is that it's two single beds that have been pushed together. I don't know, this is not good. I'm just going to go and talk to someone downstairs. And basically we found out that they don't do double beds in that hotel. They only do single beds stuck together. So this is your honeymoon. So, you know, what's going to happen. So my fear, like the whole time we're in Italy is that I'm gonna fall down the crack.

Jared Saar (00:37:17):
Oh, was there a gap?

Andy Khatouli (00:37:18):
Well, it's two beds pushed together.

Jared Saar (00:37:21):
So there was a little, gap in the middle. Oh my goodness.

Andy Khatouli (00:37:25):
So anyway, so then I'm like, oh, let's just ignore it. Like we're in Italy. It's going to be a good time. So we go out into like the local town and there's nothing there. I'm not joking. There's literally nothing there. There's like one or two restaurants and like a car park. I'm looking at my wife. I'm like, oh no, I've stuffed this up haven't I? So, on the first day we were like, all right, let's just walk to the next town. No planning ahead. This is classic Andy. I'm just like, let's just be spontaneous. Let's just go. We walked for an hour to the next town on like blazing heat on like a winding roads where cars are passing us. And then I suddenly realized people on mopeds. And I was like, oh, there's a moped service. We should apply it to my bed. But we literally walked in an hour to get to the next town. And in there, there was like a few more bits. So that was good. But I just remember thinking, oh, sometimes my enthusiasm gets the best of me. Like I really should have planned ahead.

Jared Saar (00:38:27):
Yeah. Nice.

Stephanie Alcaino (00:38:29):
I've also been thinking about like being a freelancer. I think one of my other great failures or consistent failures, and I think this speaks into the whole idea of not only being pragmatic and visionary and being, finding a way to like compliment those two together, but also the whole idea of our perceptions on failure really indicates how we fail. And I realized that was when I was a lot younger as a freelancer is how I received feedback from clients. You know, my identity was so intertwined with the job that I did that if I received any form of feedback, I thought that was failure that I just didn't do the job well, the first time round. And then on top of that, it not only hurt a lot more, but also it's like, I had so much pride of going well, I should've done it well the first time or why didn't you like it the first time around? And so my expectation was that I shouldn't be receiving any form of feedback. And I think that caused me my mind to fail regularly because I was receiving feedback, you know, at least one round or two rounds of feedback from clients. But it's not until later down the track, did I realize that I actually needed to change my mentality of going actually feedback is good and it should be expected. And I think sometimes, you know, I know for myself, if I don't clearly put into my sort of journey, whatever it is that I will fail along the way and put that expectation in, then I won't slow down when I do fail. I actually go, okay, what can I learn from this? And how can I move forward? Or how can I pivot? And I just realized that, speaking to other sort of freelances and photographers is that feedback sometimes can be seen as, oh, I failed, or why wasn't my work good enough. Or why is the client fading back on him in like

Andy Khatouli (00:40:24):
An absolute sense? Like full stop you failed.

Stephanie Alcaino (00:40:27):
Yeah. Or just going, well, they shouldn't be feeding back, but it's a collaborative piece. So everyone should be feeding back if you're working for a client or with others, that should be an expectation of feedback along the way. And I think definitely when I was a lot younger, I didn't expect it. So I used to get destroyed when someone said, can you fix this picture or can you amend it? Well now, you know, within the business, particularly, I've just like, okay, at least we expect feedback every time from a client. And that's a normal thing.

Jared Saar (00:40:59):
It's in the budget.

Stephanie Alcaino (00:41:00):
Yeah, exactly. And I definitely realized that that was just my perception of that feedback equaled failure. And I think even personally in my life, I carried that, that feedback equaled failure, but now I've realized that feedback and failure is actually just data. It's just teaching you. Okay. What were the little gaps that you didn't see in your blind spots or things that you hadn't considered and how can you now fuel that to move forward? Yeah, but back then, it was like a blow to the ego. If someone was feeding back. And I realized that actually how I perceived it was just wrong. I hadn't put right expectations in along the way. I don't know whether you guys had your same journey or not.

Jared Saar (00:41:46):
I think even when you say I know there's feedback coming, it still hurts. I still find like, even if we know it's in the budget, you know, it's there, but you put so much work into something that when you hand it over, you know, you're asking for feedback, but in your head, you're going, I don't want any feedback please. Because I dunno, I still, I didn't, it's the emotion and maybe you're tying yourself to the work.

Matt Miller (00:42:08):
I think it's always even about like, I don't think we have to label that as a negative thing. I think for me, "Mr. Robot" I literally don't care. if someone's like, I hate it. Like I'm like cool, like for me I feel like quite detached. Yeah. It's really difficult sometimes because sometimes I should care a lot about what I'm putting out and I think that's the other side of the coin. But I also think, and this is something we've learned in this business that not everyone is equipped to give feedback. So some people just feel that though, because I've paid for a service, I have a say in the end result. However, I want to say it to get my thing done, I'm going to say it. So there's some stuff that's tied up in that we've had to coach people. Yeah. Hey guys, this is a constructive way of communicating your expectations. This is a constructive and helpful way for us to interpret what's going on in your mind so that we can put pen to paper and get it done. And so everyone's happy. We love the process. It's highly collaborative, but I mean, we've learned the hard way.

Andy Khatouli (00:42:35):
Jared has done a brilliant job in building our expectations side of the business with clientele. Because without having you introduce clients to our process, I think we would have the same problems reoccurring. But what you do is you establish kind of like the lay of the land. So people feel comfortable and like welcomed to share.

Jared Saar (00:43:44):
Yeah. That's good. I think this goes like, well, that kind of process goes back to even before OneSixOne, Matt and I were working together in another workplace. And we realized that it's easier to lay on the ground rules and expectations early and then pull back than it is to not lay it down and then introduce them later and then be like, oh, by the way, like, this is our process. And they'd be like, what? That kind of thing. Like if you at the beginning, like do not cross this line, do it this way. This is what we expect. Then later you can be like, yeah, that's fine. Like, because there's a, there's an expectation that they're like, is this okay? And you're like, yeah, yeah, that's fine. But you've kind of done the groundwork, but the reason why we implement a lot of stuff is because there's been a lot of times I've stuffed up. For me, there was time when I think Steph's mentioned it, where her photography was used incorrectly. So with photography, you license images. That's usually where, I guess in art, in any form, you kind of licensing an image or you're buying it out. So licensing an image just for those that maybe aren't aware, it was just, you know, Steph's taking a photo. I'd like to use that digitally for a year. So I can make flyers, like in terms of digital flyers and put it on email, but Steph still owns that artwork or that image is how you'd put it. Now, if someone was like, no, no, I want that image forever. I want you to now give me that image. So no longer is it Steph's, image. It becomes a client. And that's usually what's called like a buyout fee and that's big, big money basically. So in this case we had a client and we had a contract and our contract at that point, was kind of a mix of like AOPs photography contract mixed in with like a creative studios contract. It was a Frankenstein contract. It was just pieced together.

Matt Miller (00:45:25):
Copy and pasted from different locations.

Jared Saar (00:45:29):
Definitely. And we didn't have like proper lawyers at that point. So it was at that time when it was like, we, you kind of have so many things, you've got to spend money on and you're starting a business that you kind of like, can't afford that yet. We'll have to just afford that when we can. Well, we had this client, we clearly stated these images that Steph had taken will be used digital only. And it was for, you know, I think it was for a year. And then, you know, lo and behold, their product launches, it was a clothing brand. They're kind of clothing, brand launches. And in all the bags is a booklet of Steph's, images. And it was like, huh, like that's a print now. He didn't pay for that. You paid for digital usage only. And I remember we were all just like, well, we need to tell them like, excuse me, you've used images incorrectly. You haven't paid for that. Either. You need to pay us a license for the print, or you need to, what they call in industry, like destroy the copies. Basically. You can't use them. As soon as we fired off the email, it was a response with I've passed you onto my lawyer. Like they didn't even respond. It was like, I passed you on to my lawyer and they will handle this. And it was like, ah, crap. So now we're not talking to the client anymore. We're talking to a lawyer and the lawyer wanted to call me to discuss the contract. And now I'm just like, oh my goodness. Because you know, when you start going down this thing in your head, you seen so many like American lawyer dramas where you're like, he's not only going to get me for this. He's going to get me for something else too. You know, he's going to be like, well, no, we can use them. And technically I own your business now. You know what I mean? [Laughter]. So I remember we were sitting in a cafe and I knew he was going to call and I got this call from this lawyer. And as soon as he picked up the phone, you just knew he did this every day. You know, he was a barrister. He knew it was like he was calm and collected, but he was in charge. And I was like, hello? You know, when you kind of felt like a teenager where you're like your voice cracks, but you're like, hello. Ahem.... Hello. And then, and then, you know, he said, right, let's talk this through. And you know, when he started going in like 0.3 says that these images are ours kind of thing. And we can do whatever we want and I'm going. And I remember going sorry, I've got to talk to my team. One moment. I'll call you back, hang up the phone, look at the contract, look at the point and then realize he's only read out half of it. And the other half says, no, it does belong to us. And so I call back and I go, whoa, the rest of the, and I remember reading out the other part and he goes, okay, like he knew. He knew that he was wrong. He was, he was smart and I was being played. And to the point where like, we sought legal advice, we didn't get any money for it. I think we got £14. That was all. That's all he said. He's like, well, we'll pay this much.

Andy Khatouli (00:48:23):
Was that for your coffee whilst you're out? Yeah. And I was just like, I felt like such a failure. And then I went, we ended up getting actual lawyers. We said, okay, we need to get lawyers for our business because you can get in so much trouble. If you don't have a tight contract and someone used your images wrong. Because if the model in the image says, Hey, you've used my face in the wrong way. Give me money for that. They'll come to us. They won't go to the client. They'll say to the agency, why haven't you paid me more money? So we were like, we need lawyers to look at our contracts. And I spoke to the lawyer. I told them the situation, I showed them our contract. And I said, is there anything we can do? And she said, look, you're going to have to take this one on the chin. And she goes, this contract is clearly a mess of a whole bunch of contracts. She's like, if I was on the other side, I could destroy. You we'd win. No problem. And so she basically, it was like, let's take this on the chin and we'll write up a proper one. And we wrote, we wrote up a proper one, but you know, in hindsight I was like, that sucks mistakes made, but thank goodness. It was such a low risk like problem.

Stephanie Alcaino (00:49:28):
The, the biggest sort of like extra hit was the fact that a friend walked into a department store later. And my images were in that department store as well. And you just, like, you just knew you couldn't do anything. You're just like, I'm just going to have to let this one go. But it was just devastating.

Andy Khatouli (00:49:45):
Do you know what I would have done, I was just got a marker and in the bottom corner by Steph.

Stephanie Alcaino (00:49:48):
And probably get sued for damages.

Jared Saar (00:49:57):
That was a good learning curve.

Stephanie Alcaino (00:49:58):
Yeah. I mean, if anything, it teaches us that it goes back to that whole learning thing is just being aware of the gap of research or information that you know, and if you can't learn it, bring someone else in who knows it and help them sort of mitigate that risk in the first place. And it was a tough mistake to have to deal with. And both of us kind of had gone through a lot of anxiety during that.

Jared Saar (00:50:23):
It was anxiety and it was sad because you heard so many stories of photographers going, Hey, they've my image, wrong and then £30,000. And then the client been like, okay, do you know what I mean? Like, you'd heard all those stories and you're like, oh, okay. OneSixOne might get some money and it was like nope.

Stephanie Alcaino (00:50:35):
Yeah. I think if anything, what consoled me was realizing that just the awareness that people aren't out for you, but also there was an understanding on their end that ethically and morally, they knew that they had signed a contract that said digital use only. So it was on them. And the only thing we can do next time and that's within our power is just to make sure that we make those contracts air tight. And then we can teach people from those mistakes. I mean, if anything, it's allowed at least myself to help other freelances to go through their contracts and get them the 10 to 30,000, it is a reward to see other people be able to succeed from your failures and the knowledge you had to learn from those failures.

Jared Saar (00:51:18):
I'm excited for the next time someone says, yeah, speak to my lawyer. And I go, yeah. Cool. Speak to mine. [Laughter].

[Music].

Andy Khatouli (00:51:30):
Just a funny story in what you said, Steph, about bringing the right people in to solve the problem. I remember one time, this is so bad. I feel like there's going to be a story that I find funny and no one else finds funny, but I'm just telling anyway, I installed an update onto my Mac. Anyway. So I installed it and then a particular software on my computer wouldn't work anymore. So I was like Googling. And I was like, is there a way to uninstall the update? And they're like, yeah, but you have to go into sort of the backend of the computer, like hold down the shift in seven something button whilst you turn on the computer. So I do that. It could turns on and I'm like trying to follow these instructions on line. Like I am not that sort of person. Like, I really should have asked someone to help me with this. So anyway, I find the thing that I'm supposed to drag over to delete. So drag it, delete it. And I'm like, cool. That was easy. So restart the computer turns on after like 20 minutes or something. Cause it's recalibrating turns on. It's like, it's all your details, you know, when you like restart a Mac turning on boom. And then when it kind of finally loads up, it just says like user and I'm like, oh, oh my goodness, what have I done? So login, everything is deleted. I deleted the hard drive. I didn't delete the update. I dragged the wrong thing. Oh my goodness. I'm not joking. I cried. Like I actually cried. My wife came in and she was like, why are you crying? I was like, I deleted the computer.

Stephanie Alcaino (00:53:08):
I mean, I lost the hard drive and that was, that was a hard thing to lose. But you know, sometimes when you like

Andy Khatouli (00:53:17):
Them, this is how stupid it was. Like sometimes when you lose data it's because either you've like pulled out the USB by accident or whatever. But this time I actually deleted the hard drive. So, then I called up my mate, Dave, so thank you Dave. He goes, Dave, he knows the Dave. Oh, the day it's the Dave. He came over and he did his magic and he restored everything. Oh, wow. He literally found all of it. He like, he basically taught me that like we've computers, when you put something into the trash can, it's not actually gone. It's just given permission to be written over. So that's the simplistic term. I know there's going to be loads of computer nerds out there going, no, that's not right. It's more complex than that. But basically what I'd done was put it into kind of like an imaginary trash cans. He was able to like get it all back. But like that was like six years worth of design work. That was, you know, honeymoon photos, family photos. That was like all the important stuff on one computer. And I dragged it into the bin.

Stephanie Alcaino (00:54:01):
You had a happily ever after story, my hard drive and this was back then, then where I didn't realize that I need a backup hard drives. I lost 10 years worth of imagery. I cried for probably like several weeks. And it was unrecoverable.

Matt Miller (00:54:23):
So how grateful are we for failure?

Jared Saar (00:55:17):
I mean, it's the worst feeling when you're going through it.

Matt Miller (00:55:19):
Even though we know we're going to fail again. We don't stop failing.

Andy Khatouli (00:55:19):
I'm grateful for the lessons that failure brings.

Stephanie Alcaino (00:55:31):
Yeah. I think the lessons are important. And I think if anything, the discomfort is actually a good thing. Because, it actually makes you readdress certain elements and it makes you a lot sharper to the things that you could be doing better. And I think that's really important in failure. Like I love to exercise and some of the classes that I have, they're basically the best failure handbooks in what they say. Like they have comments of going, you know, 'you have to go through the worst to get to the best' and stuff like that. But it's actually true. You know, when you work out, it's small doses of like discomfort, but you start to see the results that that discomfort gets you to. And it's important that if things are too easy and going well, then you're actually not growing to the intensity that you do when you're uncomfortable. So I think it's actually quite important to fail now and again, or at least to just receive feedback on a regular basis because that discomfort actually makes you aware of those blind spots.

Jared Saar (00:56:31):
Yeah. I feel like for me, it's my relationship is obviously in hindsight, you always look back and you go, I am so glad I went through that. Like, there's so many things where I look back and go, like, I think Andy said this on a recent podcast. I'd be like, I would go through that again just to learn that lesson because it's helpful. But I think failure I'd say still hurts. It still is like, oh, I stuffed up. But I think I've learned to you don't spiral out as long as you used to. You're not like there for days going, like, I'm just the worst, I'm terrible at this blah, blah, blah. You kind of just go after like an hour or so that sucked and you're much quicker to go like, okay, let's roll up sleeves. Do it again. I think when I think about the fact that I'm going to fail again, it causes anxiety because you're like, I don't want to fail again, but you kind of know it's not that bad when you're in it. It's like a quick like, ah, that sucks. Okay. Move on.

Stephanie Alcaino (00:57:21):
Yeah, I mean the beautiful thing about failing regularly is that it builds stamina. I mean Jared and I have been through a few like tough times in our life, but I think going through them taught us that failure is not a dead end. It's only a stepping stone towards success because you learn those like the important things along the way. So it's not the sale and end all. So you start to get okay with going okay. If I fail, I know it's not just going to be the end to anything that you wanted to achieve actually only just teaches you how you can do it better.

Jared Saar (00:58:01):
Yeah.

[Music]

Matt Miller (00:58:06):
Nice to read that point in the podcast where we share what's on our radar. Things that we're excited about things we want to show out things that have changed our lives this week.

Jared Saar (00:58:14):
So this week I did watch a documentary on the weekend. I thought was quite good on Netflix was called the college admission scandal. And it's all about how, you know, very rich families in America paying money to people basically to get their children into universities and colleges and just the whole kind of, you know, the prestige of these big universities and how it's not about the university or the learning at all. It's about the badge that the university kind of brings like, oh, my child goes to Stanford or something like that. But it was like a real eyeopener because he just like, there's so many people missing out on those spots at the universities that deserve it. Cause they've worked their butt off to study and to get to that point and then along comes just this rich family, just like bribing someone on the side and taking that spot for their child who in so many cases doesn't care about the fact that they're going to that school or not. So it was a really good documentary. I thought it was really, it was really well done. So if you want to watch it and watch it, college admissions scandal changed my life.

Andy Khatouli (00:59:18):
My recommendation is a YouTube channel called never too small. And it documents small apartments flats across the worlds like places like Sydney, Italy, some in the UK, some in America where they've maximized the space in the square foot. So they invite architects and designers to come up with creative solutions as to how to make much of this space, even though it's small. So it's quite inspiring. Really cool, very tasteful and yeah, it's exciting to watch. And there are only like four to five minute videos, so they're quite palatable.

Jared Saar (00:59:54):
Nice.

Stephanie Alcaino (00:59:56):
Mine is a book called The Girl with the Louding Voice by Abi Daré. It is the most beautifully written book I have read in a really long time. It's just overwhelmingly beautiful. And it's about this young Nigerian go from a rural village. And I guess all the hardships that she encounters, like being a child bride and things like that, but her never-ending hope and pursuit to get an education. It's the first book that has made me cry in a really long time. And I just thought it was just so beautifully written as well. And you can just get this whole sense of this girl's like hope and positive view of the world, despite what she has gone through. So yeah, stunning book.

Matt Miller (01:00:41):
Nice. So my what's on my radar this week is a podcast called 99% invisible. So hosted by a guy called Roman Mars and the podcast is about bringing attention to things that we kind of take for granted in the everyday. But it's like a narrative driven podcast. So it almost feels like you're spending like 40 minutes on an investigatory piece on something, but they could be like anything from like why to all playgrounds look the same and like going in depth into that. Wow. And I think actually it's great. Cause it has a bit of history, philosophy, politics, scandal. Like it's got the whole thing when you unpack the reasons why behind stuff. But I just think as a podcast is I really enjoy the narrative kind of route to get that information. It's cool. So yeah, 99% invisible. Nice, nice. Well firstly, before we end, I should say a big, thank you to everyone that's been listening. I think one episode is this episode seven. Yeah. And like when we looked back we had 500 listeners up to the last episode. So I want to thank everyone. Who's been, who's been tuning in and listen, please do rate and review us. Like it helps. It helps us to help you to help us help you. But I think that's it guys. It's been great. It's been good. See everyone next time.

The OneSixOne podcast was recorded at the Qube, edited by Tim Steemson, music by Meganeko, and you can find us online at onesixone.com. Follow us on instagram @onesixone.co. Thanks for listening.

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